Questions about Proposals and Manuscripts

I've been away at a conference (and, unfortunately, dealing with the death of a close friend -- see my post of August 20 if you're interested), but I need to get back to questions about writing and publishing. We've had a number of questions about proposals and manuscripts lately...

Kathie wrote to say, "I'm interested in writing humorous novels. Are there many humorous novels in CBA? Should I be seeking out and reading some comparable works?"

Humor has proven to be a tough sell in the CBA market. There are certainly some novelists who have done some funny projects (check out Dana Mentink's novels, or the writings of Jenny B Jones or Todd Hafer), but it's a tough way to make a living. I had a conversation with a couple editors recently about this very topic, and they both warned me that selling humor is still an uphill climb with the Christian market. You should definitely be reading comparable titles, and there are some very funny nonfiction writers in CBA (Chondra Pierce, Anita Renfroe, and the wonderful Charles Marshall book, I'm Not Crazy But I Might be a Carrier). However, I can tell you the biggest problem with humor writers in CBA has been their tendency to move away from humor and feel a need to turn everything into a sermonette. Sticking a "deep and meaningful insight" onto the end of a funny story has a tendency to turn it into a graduation speech ("here's a funny joke...but with a thoughtful point..."). Stay away from that -- the fact is, those books never sell. It's hard to write funny, and hard to sell funny, but I continue to believe people in our world are looking for something that will make them laugh.

Ben wants to know, "What is the minimum length for a novel to be considered a complete manuscript?"

That depends on the genre you're writing for, Ben. If you are creating a contemporary romance, the publishers will expect it to be somewhere in the 55,000-to-60,000 word range. If you're writing a historical romance, most of the publishers will ask for 75,000 words. For contemporary stand-alone novels, publishers are basically looking for 90,000-to-100,000 words, so that the reader feels there is adequate cost-to-value. And some genres (epics, some speculative fiction, and all Harry Potter rip-offs) are going to be in the 110,000-to-120,000 range. Literary fiction (defined here as novels that are usually contemporary relationship-driven novels exploring the bigger issues of life) can range from as short as 60,000 to as long as 100,000 words. Of course, publishers are always willing to bend the word-count a bit if they fall in love with a manuscript, but this will give you some ballpark numbers to guide your planning.

Ed wrote and noted, "When Jesus showed up, he chose a dozen common, uncouth men to be with him. I figure he chose needy people because that's who he was going to reach. So if I create a story with needy, uncouth characters who curse and engage in unhealthy behaviors, would there be a market for my novel?"

The world of fiction is made of novels about folks who have issues -- people who don't know the answers, or who make bad choices, or struggle with sin/identity/relationships. So, sure, there's a market for a well-told tale about needy people who make decisions. In fact, I'd challenge you to find a successful novel that only includes the stories of the happy, the successful, and the contented. Would make a boring story, in my view. But I think where you're going is to ask if there's a market for this in CBA, and my answer is "maybe." I represent Lisa Samson and Claudia Burney, two authors who have dealt with some very difficult people and issues in their novels. But be warned -- if your writing isn't great, you'll find CBA publishers unwilling to take a chance on offending a readership by creating edgy novels from not-ready-for-primte-time writers.

Martin wrote a nice note and asked, "How much of your novel should you post on the internet before you have an agent or publisher? I posted three chapters, and it has proven to be so popular that I now have readers writing to me and begging me to post more of the story. My fear is that I don't want to give it away, but by the time I wait for a traditional publisher, my readers will be gone."

Interesting scenario, Martin. I have never encouraged an author to post his or her chapters on a web site outside of a promotional campaign for a book's release, since it seems like there's no way for the author to win. You might garner some attention from an agent, but it would seem like you'd be more apt to get some of the know-nothing, fly-by-night types to contact you. And as for readership, you've hit the problem dead on -- you might gain readers, but will they stick around long enough to buy the book? Doubtful -- from the time you turn in a completed manuscript, you're looking at a year's wait before there are ink-and-paper copies on store shelves. A better alternative might be to post one book, use it to build a readership, then try to steer faithful readers to purchase your new release.

Gene asked, "What did you think about the quality of writing in The Shack? It's become a phenomenon, selling more than a million copies, but I heard the author had to self-publish because it was 'too Christian for the general market publishers, and too edgy for the Christian publishers.' True?"

I don't know why everyone rejected The Shack, but I can tell you that I've talked with a few editors who will openly admit they turned it down because they felt the writing wasn't up to par. There's been a rumor floating that CBA houses were scared off by the story (or the notion of God being in the form of an African-American woman), but I've yet to talk to the publisher who agrees with that scenario. The fact is, the author showed it around, couldn't find a taker, so he self-published some copies. It started to grow via word of mouth, he printed some more, advertised on "The Ooze," and eventually it took off. Recently the authors sold the package to Hachette.

We live in a world of spiritually hungry people, and The Shack speaks to that need. So while I found the story interesting, I thought much of the writing was weak. In fact, I might very well have rejected it had it come across my desk (and since I had a computer die, I admit that I don't have a record of having done so, though I've talked with plenty of agents who claim to have rejected it). Of course, I take no pleasure in saying that. I'd have loved to have represented a million-seller. It proves, once again, that this is an art as much as a science. I'm not sure I agree with those in the industry who seem to think this proves that people have bad taste -- the fact is, there are numerous writers who have done well with novels the literati look down on (J.K. Rowling and Jerry B Jenkins are two recent examples). Perhaps we sometimes want to impose rules onto novels unnecessarily. My guess is that the author of The Shack, Paul Young, hears the criticism of academics, then cries all the way to the bank.

Got a question? Let me have it. -Chip

Comments

[Rob Sargeant]

Chip,

Regarding your comments on The Shack, I think you're right saying writing is an art as much as a science. I'm reading The Shack now, and find it interesting. I think it's a mixed genre; part thriller, part literary. Maybe that's why publishers had a hard time with it. The writer has definately found his voice. It does have its weak points but overall it works.

[Darcie]

Question about novel endings: for a novel that's hopefully the first in a series (YA), is it possible to conclude the mss in the POV of the antagonist?

My protag and antag will journey from book to book, however their character arcs will rise and fall at different points of the overarching story. Like one of those line graphs of the current stock market superimposed over market trends of the past.

At the end of my novel, my antag has a character arc spike. My protag's arc shifted at the same time, but her internal resolutions are going to take more time.

What advice to you have on how to handle the ending of series books that need to stand alone, yet have those threads of continuation?

[Cheryl]

Chip, just as a point of further insight, can you tell us more specifically what you thought was weak about the writing in The Shack?

[Bonnie Grove]

For Kathie: Read Adrian Plass and Phil Callaway as well as those listed by Chip. You will laugh out loud. I'm a huge Plass fan.

For Martin: I posted the first chapter of my novel on my website. I had several major publishing houses read it and contact me. And the person who is now my agent also read the first chapter on my website before she e-mailed me. So, it can work. But I don't have it posted now - My agent sold the book (and an unwritten sequel), so I pulled it down from my site. I hope to repost excerpts once editing ect has been finished. But that's just what happened to me, which isn't the same for everyone.

Love your blog, Chip!

[Jennifer Griffith]

Chip,

So sorry for your loss. I just read your Aug 20th post in honor of your friends. What a moving tribute. I've lost too many along the way who I wish I could've spent more time with, and said I love you at least once more. I wish I'd had more time with my amazing father who passed away when I was 18. I wish I could've shown him my appreciation for the sacrifices he made for his children as he fought for his life his last 9 years with us.

I love the picture your child painted with his words. I can envision God gatering all of the balloons for his children in heaven, and reuniting us with the things we lost too soon on earth.

May God comfort you during this time. Thanks for the reminder to not let too many balloons get away.

Blessings,
Jennifer

[Timothy Fish]

When I see this questions about whether there is a market for novels with uncouth characters, I get the impression that the author wants to focus on the uncouth behavior. But there isn’t really a story to write about uncouth behavior.

I know she didn’t ask me, but with Darcie’s question I can’t help but think that if it is a question of whether the manuscript will sell, the agent or editor has already decided if the book is good or not by the time he reaches that point in the story. As for threads of continuation, I would think bringing the A plot to a satisfactory conclusion and leaving one of the lesser plots unresolved would serve that purpose.

[Courtney Walsh]

I just read your post from August 20th. I'm so sorry you had to deal with not one but three deaths to this awful disease. It just doesn't seem fair. Or right. Or fair.

Prayers to you and to your friend's family.

[Nicole]

Paul Young calls himself an "accidental author" because he wrote the little novel for his kids to display his personal journey of healing from childhood sexual abuse. The writing is noticeably inferior to some, not so much to other published authors, but as Chip explained, it fills a spiritual need for many readers and challenges concepts for those who tend to put God in a rigid box.
I don't think the current word counts for most genres accomplish the "best bang for the buck". The short and lean novels leave this reader empty with very few exceptions.

[Sheri (Lynn Rush) Boeyink]

Thanks for the post, Chip. I'm sorry for your loss as well.

I've heard mixed stories of posting chapters. Theft being one of them. It's been suggested to me to post a teaser, like a hook or tag line.

Do many agents/editors surf blogs/websites reading partials? I'd never heard of that.

Bonnie, you said some found you online. I'm assuming it's after you made a connection with them and they were interested in learning more about you? Or were they randomly surfing the net?

[Austin Williams]

Seriously, regarding humour...

I think the bottom line is most Christian attempts at humour are miserable.

I remember hearing one man remark about the singer to Dead Artist Syndrome after seeing them play at the Cornerstone Festival, and said "He'd be a great Christian comedian – except that he's actually funny!"

Comedy is one of those genres that has to be on the edge in order to really work. I know plenty of hilarious Christians, but the material they use is almost always too uncouth, gritty and irreverent (without, I should note, ever necessarily being sinful). They'd do well on the comedy circuit, definitely, but in the CBA? Probably not so much.

[Jenny]

I'm no expert, but comedy is a topic near and dear to my heart. I think you can be funny and still keep your halo. Yes, the easiest humor leans toward crude or edgy, but look at The Cosby Show. No cussing, no crudeness, but still funny. It had sarcasm, irony, exaggeration, and physical comedy. It also had strong, well developed characters, which I think is key to people buying into your fictional comedy.

Another great example of clean humor is Haven Kimmel, whose nonfiction work Chip introduced me to. A Girl Named Zippy was one of the few books to ever make me laugh out loud, and if there's something even remotely offensive in there, I don't remember it. Life is funny all by itself. So find ways to capture that with words and word pictures.

Also think about some of our most successful evangelist personalities. In the mix of their speaking/teaching/writing skills, a lot of them have humor as a strength too, such as Joyce Meyer and Beth Moore. I really believe humor can work.

Now, back to the debate...which is not making me laugh, but probably will by the time it hits SNL tomorrow.

[chip]

Well, Jenny would know, since she's one of the few writers who can make ME laugh out loud. Some responses to questions posed...

1. Very few agents and editors surf the web to read posted chapters. But some do, since I've talked with authors who have sold a few things that way. Still, I'd be wary of a drive-by agent who comes calling.

2. Somebody mentioned Phil Callaway -- a wonderful guy who I really enjoy and find very funny in person. But in print...well, I think he's been forced to turn much of his stuff into something too safe. When he did his "Total Christian Guy" book, for example, he had very funny stuff that, unfortunately, was edited so that every funny bit was forced to have some sort of "deep and meaningful point" added to it -- thereby taking away the humor and turning it into a slightly humorous sermonette. He's a great talent, but I wish he'd be given the freedom to just write funny.

3. As for THE SHACK, I thought the writing was very muddy. Young's sentence structure is weak, his dialogue is very uneven (sometimes interesting, other times completely confused), and his characters flat. It's more of a parable than a novel, and I'm not a huge fan of parables. As I said, people love it more for his interesting story and new directions than for his craft as a wordsmith -- and that's fine with me. I was just pointing out that, in my opinion, the book lacks great wordcraft.

[robin@heartofwisdom.com]

Enjoyed your review of "The Shack" Thank you for taking the time to share.

I was not in total agreement with The Shack (I am not in total agreement with several of my favorite authors).Any book that includes conversations with God is bound to receive criticism. How can anyone put words in God’s mouth? But this is one moving book! I smiled, cried, pondered, prayed, and repented as I read ( I have been hurt a lot in churches so I was profoundly impacted.). I read it twice and now listening to the audio. Amazing! Be sure to check out "The Shack Blog and Forum.

I wrote a lengthy review on blog. Please visit.
http://heartofwisdom.com/blog/my-review-of-1-ny-times-best-seller-the-shack/
Blessings,
Robin @ HeartofWisdom

[Lyonna]

The Shack succeeds because it preys on the reader's emotions, and tickles where the itch is, to *experience* God in new ways other than what the church has shoved down our throat. I think the author paints God in a universalistic way, which emphasizes one side of God and screws with sound doctrine. Heck, the reader doesn't care if it's not some great literary work OR biblically correct, and thus, for whatever reasons Young wrote the book, it's a smash for the masses.

I tend to think certain books are propelled by a different spirit, but hey, what do I know?

[Merci Beaucoup]

I am far too late to comment but I just have to had that I agree about the weakness of the writing. I won't touch on the theology (except to say "a bit shaky") or the personification of the Trinity (which a good friend and pastor tells me is a violation of the 2nd commandment), but I will say that I found the writing, to use the nice adjective, weak. It felt very "The Secret" to me, with the mysterious Holy Spirit character. And, being a Southerner (New Orleans born & bred), I found the Papa character not only annoying but insulting. I've not one AfAm friend, even of the older generation, with deep belly laughs and "sho' 'nough" talk of "Papa." Personally, I believe this book is the Oprah BOTC pick for the CBD reading group.

All of that said, WPY is a terrific speaker - very sociable and a good listener. At the talk I attended, the lines were deep and he hugged all to whom he spoke - which also gave me a bit o' the heebie-jeebies. (Felt a tad idolatrous to me, but I'm a mere nerd and not a million-seller.)

My question to you, Chip: "I'd have loved to have represented a million-seller." Even if you disagreed (and I'm not saying you do/did) with the theology? How does that come into play as an ed/agent?