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November 16, 2009

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Marla Taviano

You do realize this marks the end of the flattering blog comments for you, right? No one's going to risk looking like a Mindless Chip Fan.

p.s I can't believe you don't like fish tacos.

Anne Lang Bundy

I enjoy a good tragedy, and darkness in a story doesn't bother me. I genuinely enjoyed Dekker's Kiss and Blink of an Eye. I even appreciated Thr3e, but this was also the point at which I realized the darkness overwhelmed the story. I no longer read Dekker, and was sorry to let go an author of whom I'd be a fan save for him going a bit too far.

I'm broadminded. Nonetheless, in CBA, I'd always expect Light to not simply contrast, but to cleanly overwhelm darkness.

Timothy Fish

Brilliant! You de man, Chip! Uh, actually, don't get used to that. I disagreed with you. But then I also disagreed with Ted. And that was after I agreed with both of you. (http://timothyfish.blogspot.com/2009/11/thoughts-about-shouting-match.html) But as for fan comments, I tend to ignore them. I've seen posts where someone basically copied a definition out of a dictionary and the comments talked about how brilliantly it was written. I think I prefer Trolls to blind fans.

AW

Chip you are so intelligent, hilarious, savvy, cool, chipper, smiley ... you're just the best.

AimeeLS

Chip, I'd like you to know that if you act like a complete twerp on your blog I'll be happy to tell you so.

I also promise never to call you 'da man'.

I'm that kind of fan.

Aimee

PS - Thanks for having the humility to admit you aren't ALWAYS right. Would you mind asterisking (that's a word, right?) any of those moments of stupidity ahead of time so we know to disregard? Thanks.

chip responds

It's true. I can be a twerp.

AimeeLS

There's some more of that humble truth we like so much :)

You da man! Oh...wait...

Matt Mikalatos

Aw, man. I love celebrity death matches. Do you think Ted would at least write a scary chase scene in a future book where his fans are trying to get you?

chip responds

You know, I've already had at least dozen emails from people, saying that after this post, nobody will be brave enough to ever comment again!

AimeeLS

*Pats Chip's head soothingly*

It's okay. You're Scottish. It was bound to happen.

Janice Thompson

The only part of this post that genuinely astounded me was the part where you said you have a brother and a sister who were both dancers. If this is the case, what happened to you? Why are you not a dancer, too? Were they adopted? Or did you just get the funny gene, instead? Seriously, Chip. . .I'm your biggest fan, even if you don't dance.

Levi Montgomery

(Not a "you da man" comment.)

Actually, for the record, I think the reason you see Mr Dekker's argument as a straw man is because you missed his argument.

Quote: "[T]hese kinds of guidelines publically characterize Christianity and so called ‘Christian Fiction’ as being out of touch with reality, narrow minded and judgmental, regardless of the publisher’s intention."

Frankly, there are many words and situations listed in those guidelines that I avoid, yet I managed to to write a rather dark novella ("A Place to Die, https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/5028), which, in spite of its darkness, does in fact show light clearly overwhelming dark, and does show the power of God and of prayer. It is certainly a project I could not have written under Harlequin's guidelines for the Love Inspired line, had I known they existed, but that's not the point.

Having grown up in an extremely strait-laced, legalistic church, I am well aware of the narrow view held by some as to what constitutes Christianity. Certainly, this list cannot be said to have broadened those views, but that's fine, because apparently it is not the intent of the guidelines or the books they are intended for to broaden anyone's view of Christianity, to speak to non-Christians in any significant way, or to show darkness losing out in a big showdown. And that's fine.

But I believe the central point of Mr Dekker's argument is simply that these guidelines risk being taken as a definition of Christian fiction (which they are not -- portions of the King James Bible would not clear these guidelines), and would, if applied to all of Christian publishing, severely hamper the ability to speak to certain people in certain situations.

Certainly, there is a need for such fiction. Believe me, if my mother read "A Place to Die," she'd be appalled. I believe there's also a need for Ted Dekker's fiction (disclaimer: I've never read any of his work), for Frank Peretti's, and (I hope) for mine, as well.

This why God made so many of us. We're all different.

Kathy Nicholls

Thanks for this post. It reminds us that we are all human and while I love the blogs I follow, I also very much appreciate that the writers are human. Have always told those who follow me in my own profession to please not put me on a pedastal as I will fall off one day and don't want to break my neck. Thanks for expressing that so clearly.

Michael Hyatt

Chip, loved this blog. You're a genius. ;-)

Seriously, the secret to growing your fan base is fish tacos. I have been hesitant to say this in public, because I know it's going to start a run on Mexican restaurants everywhere. But I have to be honest. There's something about fish tacos that create brand "stickiness" (or at least sticky fingers).

Cindy Thomson

You make a very good point here, Chip, about mindlessly following people and refusing to see their flaws. If you do that, you are sure to be disappointed or even devastated at some point because no one can live up to the image of a perfect human being for long.

At one time the United Methodist Church was known for moving its pastors frequently. Some church people would be crushed when their favorite pastor had to move on and some even followed him to his new church. My mother was surprised by the reaction she got when she told people that she didn't go to the church for the pastor anyway. She went there because of the church itself (meaning the flock.)

It's a good reminder to ask ourselves just who it is we are following.

Sharon A Lavy

It is hard to take the emotion out of our responses.

I always appreciate your posts and the way you share with all of us, not just your clients.

Thank you.

Lisa Jordan

The thought of fish tacos makes me gag. Ugh.

As for the great Chip MacGregor...well, you used to intimidate me. Seriously. But that was until last night in the My Book Therapy chat.

Wildly fun! Great information! Saw the goofy side of you. A couple of times, I wanted to duct tape your fingers. Challenged my job as moderator, but I don't regret it. Hope to have you back again sometime.

Hope the wild winds settled and didn't blow your house down!

Leah Morgan

Your blog referencing Ted Dekker really threw me off. I thought I had you pegged and expected your reaction to be total agreement. My heart was softened by your defense of writers seen as lesser in the eyes of some and my own conscience a bit pricked by your shallow vs. deep point. It made you appear trustworthy and safe, so much so that I immediately tied on a blindfold and extended my arms to begin my mind-numbed following.

Tim George

The old saw "there is none more judgmental than the one who is judgmental of the judgmental" is proven true in Dekker's post. So what if Love Inspired wants to establish standards for its books. No one has to read them if they don't want to (including Dekker). I don't read Christian romance and would probably gag if I did. But that isn't the point! Love Inspired produces books its loyal readers enjoy and are grateful for. Last time I checked I haven't seen any of those authors blogging against Dekker's books.

As to the fanatics - we will always have them. God bless them. God help them.

chip macgregor

Hey, Levi, you make a great point. And if that was Ted's main point, I'd be more apt to offer him another attaboy. But... well, frankly, I don't think that was his point. Still, I appreciate you coming on and making your very thoughtful and well-reasoned response.

Tricia

GREAT POST, CHIP! You da man.

Seriously, this is an Emperor Wore No Clothes Story. I see it a lot on agent blogs. Agents have followers and of those followers he or she will have a few regulars who comment on each and every post as if the agent said the most mind-blowing thing ever. It's definately drone-like and I wonder if their sucking up will help or hurt their chances with that agent.

Nicole O'Dell

I think the debate, for lack of a better word, really made me think. I enjoyed reading both sides and all of the comments on the issue as a whole.

What it comes down to, folks, is that you should write what you want to write. Choose a publisher, agent, market, that best suits your style and your goals. If the guidelines of a particular publisher are too stringent for your writing, I guess that's not the one for you. Certainly each publisher has the right to set guidelines just a writer has the right not to write for them.

Simple.

Thanks for the great posts, Chip MacGregor, the Magnificent. ;)

Looking forward to Indy!

Darcie

For some reason I find these kinds of debates interesting. I'm not a fan of romance. I like true to life stories that are edgy and thrilling, but I'm not gonna bash my romance writing friends.
To me it's about market. There is an audience for Ted Dekker, and an audience for Harlequin. I applaud writers who can find their market and be successful.
But what seems to be the root of this debate is the ancient question: what is Christian Fiction?
I think it was Dave Lambert who said it best at the ACFW conference in MN - "There are two kinds of fiction; good fiction and bad fiction." As writers we need to write the stories God called us to write. He will infuse himself in our stories as needed for our audience. Our job is to excel at the craft so our books revealing Him will be deemed "good fiction".
And I must admit I hate fish, so fish tacos are out for me, but no judgement on those who happen to like the smelly stuff :D

John Robinson

No Celebrity Death Match between you and Ted? Crap. Now I'll have to cancel the deposit I put down on the Thunderdome.

Would have been sweet, too. You could have had the chainsaw, Chip, and Ted could have had the sledgehammer. I would have left it between the two of you to decide who got to carry the dwarf on his back.

Michael Snyder

Late-breaking news from the publishing front.

Dateline 11/17/09 - From Publisher’s Weakly:

"...it appears that best-selling Christian thriller writer, Ted Dekker, is prepared to take his apology to readers of Steeple Hill’s ‘Love Inspired’ novels to another level altogether. In a stunning development, Dekker has agreed to put his literary money where his mouth is, and actually WRITE his own series of Love Inspired titles.

To further complicate matters the recently beleaguered master of suspense has decided to ‘up the contrition ante’ (or perhaps the penance ante?) by creating a storyline that tests the publisher’s oft-mocked restrictions to their sanitized limit…

‘After a felonious attempt at involuntary nipple-piercing, recovering priest and retired gambling addict, Seymour Flesh has been sentenced to 3,000 hours of community service as a Shoe Shine Man in a men’s restroom…not just any restroom, but a lavatory haunted by the ghost of Victoria…not just any Victoria, but the one with all the lacy Secrets. Not only is Seymour smitten at first sight, but also afflicted with a case of late-onset Tourette’s. To win Victoria’s eerie little heart, Seymour must appease Victoria's imperious father--the mythic god of shoehorns--by cleaning up his mouth as well as the endless bank of smelly urinals…’

The release of Book I (as yet untitled) is slated for the second January of 2012.”

Just though you'd like to know.

Robin Archibald

Thanks for your words re. personalities and sycophants, Chip.

My dad was a Christian leader who had hard words for obsequious people who he felt forced him onto a pedestal. “They want someone to follow,” he’d say. “They don’t want to think for themselves.” And he could be frank in his disrespect for Christian-leader-power-monger types who cultivated such followers in order to build might for their conservative political agendas. For that he was viciously attacked.

Your description of the mega-church pastor is one reason I avoid mega churches. I just don’t trust them because they tend toward the “personality-sycophant” syndrome. Having said that, here’s my caveat: It is ABSOLUTELY true that the pastor of a mega-church can be a humble, realistic, sin-confessing, Christ-centered, Holy Spirt-indwelled shepherd of his flock.

And re. your post several days ago about assuming a less “edgy” blog personality . . . I liked the gentler, more sincere you. I hoped it was the other part of you--in other words, the whole you to round out your edgy side. It seemed the edgy you had become your blog personality. I noted that the back-patting comments you usually received were “replies in kind” from those who could assume similarly edgy, flip, or cool personas. But that made you unapproachable for those of us who don’t want to work so hard to be cool. (My husband, however, will tell you I can be plenty edgy . . . )

RH

Putz is such a great word. Putz.

The link to the NYT author's diatribe about money was so depressing I don't think I want to write any more.

At least today. But I'm on deadline

Johne Cook

Mike Snyder ftw!

PatriciaW

Hate that I missed last night's My Book Therapy Chat. (I'll get the transcript from Lisa.)

But phrases like "In short, the guy was a putz." and "...I'll be the first to tell you that I do NOT know everything, do NOT always set a good example, and do NOT want the responsibility of being the last word on everything in publishing" will keep me reading forever. (Is that syncophant enough for you?)

All you have to do is continue to be honest. Most of us appreciate it.

Joanne Mueller

At the heart of the issue of fans that set the blog-writer (agent,writer,etc.) up as god-like is the very human urge to have an idol. They want something to worship and admire. Of course this type of admiration is only supposed to be given to God. (Glad you don't want it, Chip. As much as I appreciate the job you do, I wouldn't have given it to you anyway.) It's important to have compassion on such followers while still directing them away from ourselves as the object of their affection. We only are to fill the role we are assigned by God. Yours, Chip, is obviously to educate us about publishing for which I am grateful.

By the way, I like the edgy Chip. I like to know what you REALLY think. And I might disagree with you someday. I never did like the mindless drone gig.

chip

Michael is clearly off his meds again...

And I happen to LOVE fish tacos! (Salmon is best, but I had a spicy whitefish recently that was great.)

Lenore Buth

As usual, Chip, you pull no punches, but with your customary humor tucked in.

I agree with you; some churches are personality-driven. That can get in the way of being Jesus-driven. If/when that person leaves--or makes the scandal headlines--disillusioned people leave the church and sometimes never come back.

As for the Dekker thing, if Michael Snyder's comment is for real, Dekker has gone over the edge.

Or are you putting us on, Michael?

Debbi

Oh, Chip! You're flinging the big words: sycophants. Love it! I can't attest to your genius--or lack of genius, for that matter. But, I do like your honesty. It paws listening to sickening sweet diatribes. Yours is meat. Just the facts, ma'am. Thanks.

Ange

For some reason, this has me thinking of the "Twilight" movies. If someone mentions not liking "Twilight," they're attacked by hordes of what we geeks call fanboys (sorry, we haven't come up with a unisex name). If someone mentions liking "Twilight," out comes the fundy chainsaw. Oh, the things we worship.

Ahem. Sorry.

I kind of agreed with Ted - the word list was ridiculous.

Although I have seen stricter on a pub guidelines list, along the lines of female characters can't wear skirts, etc. But it was for a very conservative market, so it was appropriate. Which leads to ....

The list seems appropriate to the Christian romance market. Ted's rant was a little on the ranty side, but he writes dark, so maybe he thinks dark, too?

(Count me in as another disappointed to find there was no death match scheduled. At the very least, we should be treated to a Twitter war.)

Ange

Sorry, need to clarify: the female characters couldn't wear skirts, they must wear dresses only.

Sandra Bishop

I think we can all agree that Michael Snyder is now clearly de man...

Courtney Walsh

For the record, I love the word "twerp" and seeing it in print makes me happy on the inside.

Somewhere along the way I missed that you used to make a living performing? I want to hear more about that!

I'm a romance writer who is also a Ted Dekker fan. For that reason, if he did write a Love Inspired line, I'd pre-order it. Truly, I'd like to see a little more realism in romance novels myself... as long as there's still a happy ending...

Oh, and Chip, you're a genius. :)

Mike Sheehan

Hi Chip,

As always, interesting blogs the last 2 days.

I agree with a "to each his own" approach, and that what some people like to read would offend others. I also now realize that purely Christian fiction has some definite dos and dont's that surprised me a bit. One thing that was unfortunate is some people (thankfully a minority) seem take the rules to an extreme, almost like the Christian version of the Taliban, and if you don't meet their specific standards, heaven help you. Otherwise, most people actually act like Christians and are open-minded.

For what it's worth.

AimeeLS

What is the "My Book Therapy Chat" and how do I get in on it???

James

I've notice that us christians can get focused on one's gifts rather than one's character which can be a dangerous thing.

Gina Holmes

Good grief, Mike. You just described the idea I submitted to Chip two days ago. Huh. I guess there really is nothing new under the sun. . .

Smoore (Seth Moore)

I'm really glad I read this and your previous blog. I do consider myself a die-hard Dekkie, but even though I could probably survive a week on nothing but his Books of History Chronicles and unlimited Rockstars, I still try to remember that Ted is not God and his books are not new additions to the Bible. There are things he says that I disagree with, some personal and some of greater doctrinal value. But this blog in particular reminds me of how fired up everyone (myself included) was over the break from good doctrine he had with Green when he left the side-by-side analogy of the Circle trilogy (which did "bring me closer to God," long before I started college) and entered the purely fictional realm that he needed to complete the story. It took a few weeks of debating and deep thinking before we cooled off enough to accept that Green doesn't actually happen just like Revelation.

I realize this is long and you probably won't read it, but thanks for this. It helped me understand what all was going on here, at least.

Ted Dekker

Wow! Ted Dekker here. First of all let me express my deepest apology to any writer of any genre who felt like my criticism of Steeple Hill included Romance novels in general or of any writers. (I just finished my first romance entitled Immanuel's Veins, set in 1772. I'm a romantic fool! It was such a thrill to write.) God knows how much I adore writers of any ilk... it is such hard work, this writing we do and to think I've discouraged some writer... I am so sorry! I was only trying to make a point about very narrow guidelines that prohibited words like 'Priest' and 'Miracle' and 'Father' in a novel.

Let me also say that my whole purpose in writing is laden with spiritual intent. If my novels do not move many readers deeply to this end, they are so much pulp and I might consider quiting tomorrow.

Eitherway, I sincerely regret any offense I have caused any reader or writer. I spoke with Joan Golan at Steeple Hill today and found her to be very kind. The page in question (which prohibited words like Priest and Father etc) was very old and will hopefully come down. It certainly was no reflection of Joan.

Sorry, my friends, I did not expect to cause such a stir.

Daniel Smith

FYI: Ted just posted this on his Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/teddekker
on 11/18 at about 6:30pm EST

AimeeLS

Thanks for coming to our chat Ted!

I personally appreciate your willingness to admit things may have gone too far.

I know you're receiving a lot of advice to keep the post up after your query on Facebook. If it's worth anything, I agree with the few who've suggested taking it off is both humble and wise (in terms of letting things pass by).

In my experience, the things that are often the hardest to do are usually right.

Either way, thanks for putting yourself out there when the going got hot - I really think that shows a desire to honor God rather than yourself.

God bless,

Aimee

John 7:18 "He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him."

Randy Mortenson

Wait. Who, exactly, is Ted Dekker?

JK.

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